We dearly love our romance heroines.
They’re strong. Steadfast. Capable. Good-hearted.
They’re generally beautiful, and even if their figures aren’t perfect, they turn out to be just what the hero wanted after all. They fall in love, and when it’s good they give their all—and when it’s bad they manage to survive, but the love still remains true in their hearts, never becoming bitterness, stalking rage, or set-his-Lexus-on-fire ire.
And just to spice things up occasionally, they’re endowed with a few extra pounds, rough childhood, bad previous relationship, clinging mother, pesky urge to suck blood, etc.
As long as she’s not TOO extreme, she’s still safely inside THE BOX. After all—we want to identify with her, don’t we?
But what if she were obese? A recovering druggie/alcoholic? A workoholic bitch? A woman who (gasp!) doesn’t want children? Intellectually challenged, a victim of incest, etc.? Don’t these people deserve love as much as the next person?
Or do we demand our ‘shortcomings’ in very small doses, since it might interfere with the romantic fantasy, even if the result is still a HEA?
I’m not suggesting that graphic descriptions of dreary–even cruel–depictions of life should be a staple of romance. There’s no escapism in that.
But I’m wondering if a little more stretching of THE BOX might be in order more than occasionally.
Isn’t a large part of the appeal of the Cinderella story that the lowest of the low could find romance, riches, and a happily ever after? It wouldn’t have the same impact if her big problem was cellulite on the thighs, hammer-toes, or the occasional bad hair day.
Having a prince of a man fall in love with a beautiful woman makes a nice story. Having him fall for a penniless, parentless, dirt-poor, abused little waif is OH so much more interesting.
So why are so many heroines relegateded to THE BOX? And how much outside of THE BOX would you be willing to write/read?
I think the heroine can stick an arm or a leg outside of the box, but I don’t think I’d be particularly enamoured of a heroine totally outside of it.
I think it depends on the vice and/or limitation. Each of us has a switch we flip on certain people or situations. If we encounter a negative bugaboo we turn our switch off, closing ourself to the situation or person. And since so many people have so many different off switches, New York tries to play it safe. Unfortunately, they end up publishing the same nauseating twaddle over and over again, while still crying for “new voices and innovative storylines.”
I have a book I still believe in, but New York thought it was too out there. To sum it up, there’s an attempted rape, alcoholism, demons, angels and ghosts along with a few other unsettling things. This story consistently wins contests, consistently gets kudos from editors, yet it CONSISTENTLY gets rejected.
In New York’s defense, I know about the floating OFF switch in readers. I get a taste of it with contest judges. My story always WITHOUT FAIL gets a judge who absolutely hates it because of the physical abuse in there. I ALWAYS get a TERSE (some are downright rude) comment from some judge about how she was abused and she wished she would have been warned that my story had that element in there. As if I purposely wrote the story just to traumatize her. Anyway, this is what New York has to deal with when they make an investment in a book. They weigh the consequences in terms of reader response, and if the book is too risky, they chicken out and we’re left to deal with the aftermath of their rejections.
If you can make people laugh out loud at what you write, the box can be breached at will.
I think the dimension of the box for the heroine depends a lot on the genre and the balance in personality of other characters.
But I’m wondering if a little more stretching of THE BOX might be in order more than occasionally.
Definitely, but most authors aren’t brave enough to do that stretch. And if the author is brave enough to stick out there neck they usually can’t find a publisher to back them. At least not in the romance genre.
Again this is why I think Chick-lit and woman’s fiction became soooo popular sooo quickly. Readers were tired of the Jane Doe type heroines.
Another reason why the box is a comfort zone is that not many people can write those type of heroines well or even seperate themselves from what the character has gone through. Not that they can’t discern fiction from reality, but when the reality is so dark and bleak its hard not to get sucked into it.
(A sidenote: Isn’t the joke, find a crappy childhood and you’ll find a writer? May also be a reason the box was created and most people don’t want to break out of it.)
Intellectually challenged,
I think they call this TSTL
Man I’d realy like to see Bettie Sharp over here…or Erica Orloff. Erica’s written some challenging heroines I think
I’d like to think my heroines are a tiny bit outside of the box. :thumbsup:
Bernard makes a good point.
Tanya….you’re right also. we’re always going to push someone’s button. I got that a lot when I contested with The Big Girl’s Guide–my heroine was overweight. Unfortunately I LIKE writing characters with real conflict.
I think I’m lucky that I’ve gotten to explore some odd topics where heroines are concerned, and I’ve got an editor that’s let me get away with writing about hired thugs, and hired killers, bisexual women who are on the outs iwth their families and hell my current heroine is homeless. Funny, I tend to write a lot about heroines who ARE homeless in some sense of the word whether it’s literal or just in not having a family to call their own (for a variety of reasons). Sorry for hijacking the blog
Vanessa also makes a good point. I think in paranormal (it seems like) you can get away with more.
Ok i’m done hijacking.
Ames—hijack away, lol. :thumbsup:
…but I don’t think I’d be particularly enamoured of a heroine totally outside of it.
I’m not even sure I know what that would entail, Bernita…and perhaps such a heroine wouldn’t be suitable for a romance at all…maybe she’d belong in women’s fiction?
Tanya, I’m not sure it’s possible to write ANYTHING that wouldn’t rub someone somewhere the wrong way!
Of course, there’s a point to that. But if the genre doesn’t stretch occasionally, doesn’t the strength, the muscle behind it, eventually atrophy?
If you can make people laugh out loud at what you write, the box can be breached at will.
Good point, Bernard.
It reminds me of something Rod Serling once said. He couched his ideas in scifi/fantasy/horror guises so they wouldn’t be so easily recognized, but they’d still serve their purpose.
I think the dimension of the box for the heroine depends a lot on the genre and the balance in personality of other characters
I think you’re right on both counts, Vanessa.
I think I’m just not sure why the genre has to be (or seem) quite so limiting…
Mel, I’m not sure whether authors are reluctant to break out of THE BOX,, or whether publishers are. Maybe a little of both. And it is understandable, of course. The idea is to make money, and to make money you go with the tried-and-true until something else proves itself. But isn’t that part of what makes a “breakout” book—that it’s something outside of the “box”?
Man I’d realy like to see Bettie Sharp over here…or Erica Orloff. Erica’s written some challenging heroines I think
So would I, lol. :yesyesyes:
I’m honestly curious about people’s opinions on this sort of thing.
I’d like to think my heroines are a tiny bit outside of the box.
Wtg, Emma! :grin:
And I’m really not trying to say that the heroines should “push the envelope” just for the sake of stirring things up necessarily…but for the sake of the “truth” of the character or story, I wouldn’t mind expanding THE BOX a bit.
Unfortunately I LIKE writing characters with real conflict.
I don’t think that’s unfortunate at all, Ames!
For some reason, you made me think of comic books (let me explain, lol!).
For many years, DC was THE line of comics as far as super-heroes were concerned. Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, The Justice League of America, etc. They were all great! Fantastic! Great escapism, perfect people beneath the costumes. And yes, a problem here and there. Someone might find out their secret identity, and hell—what if they couldn’t find a phone booth nearby to change in?
Until Marvel comics came along. Marvel’s super heroes not only had powers—that had HELLIFIED problems, issues just like regular people times ten, in addition to trying to save the world!
Their popularity SOARED. And DC caught on, dammit, and made their super heroes far more human (IMHO).
The point of all this?
Damned if I know, I’ve forgotten, lol!!
It’s very late…but I’m sure there’s one in there somewhere…
And no, I’m not saying she needs to have a hump in her back and swing from the bell towers.
Although that might be interesting… :smokin:
Great dialogue you’ve got going here, Raine. The more I think about the more I’m unsure of what the dimensions of the box are.
But I’m sure I’m writing in it.
But isn’t that part of what makes a “breakout†book—that it’s something outside of the “box�
Absolutely. The writer has to go out on a limb and has to find a publisher willing to stick their neck out for the author. But the thing about that one is I can’t think of an unpublished author that a publisher was willing to do that for.
Ex: Susan Elizabeth Phillips. She was well known, but the football series that placed her on the map came much, much, later in her career.
But still I can’t think of many heroinesthat are out of the box.
But still I can’t think of many heroinesthat are out of the box.
What was that uber-popular book about the girl who was dead–and told her story? Name escapes me OBVIOUSLY NOT A romance but definitely outside the box.
I think that’s one thing I like about urban fantasy too (at least what I’ve read) and what IMO sets PBW’s characters apart–they’re very “Shades of Gray” which I just love
Hi, Amie sent me a link. Great topic! And, also, quite near and dear to my heart.
1) Paranormal: IMHO it is much easier to write an “out-of-the-box” heroine in paranormal. Whoever mentioned Marvel comics had a hell of a point–the problems of people with out-of-this-world powers are a real hook. And it’s easier for the reader to accept larger than life characters with larger than life issues than it is to accept certain more realistic problems.
for instance: a) A heroine who was kidnapped as a child by a supersecret corporation and turned into a killing machine meets the one man she could fall in love with and kills him, repeatedly, because that’s what she’s trained to do. But he’s immortal. So the one man she could fall in love with is also the one man she can’t hurt. How does she deal with the loss of power and control of the situation? How does she deal with her own vulnerability?
vs.
b) A woman who had a shitty, traumatic childhood that left her mistrustful of others; a woman who emotionally “assassinates” anyone she gets close to and repeatedly hurts the one man she could fall in love with because that is what she’s been trained to do. But he’s immune to her emotional ploys, so the one man she could fall in love with is also the one man she can’t hurt. How does she deal with the loss of power and control of the situation? How does she deal with her own vulnerability?
Comic book/movie style physical violence vs realistic emotional violence. I wrote the story as a paranormal and used movie-style violence. Plenty of people found the heroine compelling but difficult to like, but I bet they’d have liked the second version of the heroine–the realistic one–a whole lot less. I know I would have.
That’s what I like about ePubs. They take the chances NY won’t, and their successes with risky reads tilt the rudder on the big, slow moving ship of print publishing degree by degree. It may take a while for the changes in course to become apparent, but they’re there. Just look at the explosion of NY pubs picking up erotic romance titles.
Well, I have to admit, this hit home. LOL For the first time ever, i was just told to pull back on my heroine by my editor. Yep, she was a bit too dark. However, I won’t say more because I think I can work in what I want, if I just tweak a few other things. LOL
They take the chances NY won’t, and their successes with risky reads tilt the rudder on the big, slow moving ship of print publishing degree by degree.
I totally agree with this!!!! Change…in anything…takes time and it’s nice to see it happening even if it’s not as fast as we’d like.
The writer has to go out on a limb and has to find a publisher willing to stick their neck out for the author.
Exactly, Mel.
I must confess…I’ve only got a few e-books out there, but the “itch” to kick THE BOX around is pretty strong.
And no, I don’t mean just trying different sexual positions…
I think that’s one thing I like about urban fantasy too (at least what I’ve read) and what IMO sets PBW’s characters apart–they’re very “Shades of Gray†which I just love
Agree with you about urban fantasy. Some of the violence doesn’t necessarily appeal to me, but it does seem more open to “non-traditional” characters.
And PBW rocks. :yesyesyes:
Hi, Bettie!! :waving:
I’m so glad Ames got you to join us!
GREAT example. The theme is basically the same, but the paranormal take makes it more viable, although the emotional damage done to the heroine is the trigger in both cases. Absolutely.
It may take a while for the changes in course to become apparent, but they’re there.
I can feel my gray hairs sprouting…
For the first time ever, i was just told to pull back on my heroine by my editor. Yep, she was a bit too dark.
Really??! :shock:
That sort of surprises me, Sasha, since you’re pretty well established.
It’s THE BOX, I’m tellin’ ya.
THE BOX is EVERYWHERE. :shock:
Change…in anything…takes time and it’s nice to see it happening even if it’s not as fast as we’d like.
I don’t have to tell you how impatient I can be, Ames.
(Raine, kicking wall of box once again…)
Hmmmm, I’ve had differing emotions as I read each and every one of these comments. You see, I’m one of those readers who like traditional romances. So sue me. If I want urban fantasy, I’d read it. If I want to read Chick-lit I would (I don’t), I wouldn’t want everything to change so much that I, as a traditional reader, can’t find a book to read. And you know that’s what would happen, because publishers (e and print) jump on popularity and if the heroine outside the box becomes popular, that’s all there will be. Virginia Kantra wrote an Intimate Moment (Mad Dog and Annie) that was about a woman who was in an abusive marriage. Daisy Dexter Dobbs heroines are always plump. There was a Blaze where the heroine was plump. A Superomance that I read years ago had a heroine waiting for a heart transplant. They are out there. I know as writers that you want more – I understand that, but Tanya, as an abused child I would have nightmares after reading your book. I want romances for the fantasy, not the reality.
Gonna shoot me now?
Although I lurve Ames’ heroines. I don’t consider them outside the box.
Bailey, I think Raine’s main point is not that the out-of-the-box heroine should take over, just that there should be more of them.
But here’s the catch-22 if all the heroines were outside of the box, guess what ? That’ll be the new box.
It’s THE BOX, I’m tellin’ ya.
THE BOX is EVERYWHERE.
So true. You can never get out of it.
Bailey, there will always be traditional romances. I like them myself. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be writing in the genre.
I don’t believe there’s any way romance would go to such extremes that you couldn’t find a traditional one. Paranormal romance has skyrocketed, as has erotic romance. They don’t replace the traditional stuff, they just offer more VARIETY in characters, settings, sexual exposition, etc.
As I said—it doesn’t have to be gritty realism, or necessarily too extreme. The heroine doesn’t have to be humpbacked. Just something other than the usual vanilla flavoring once in a while.
Oh no Melissa, that’s not what I was saying – I know what Raine was saying. All I’m saying is that that’s the way the publishing world works. One person wrote a paranormal romance, it was successful and suddenly everyone was writing them. The market is getting saturated with them. Now, I don’t mind paranormal romances (love Howling), but that’s not my usual read. I work in a bookstore and that’s all I hear “why can’t we find anything besides paranormal” “why is (insert name Heather Graham, Mary Jo Putney, Lori Foster, Kat Martin …) suddenly writing paranormal – we can’t find their other books”. I’m afraid that if too many authors are successful writing outside the box, that the publishing world will suddenly jump on it as the “new thing” and there won’t be the traditional box that I like. And you’re right – then traditional romances would be “outside the box”. There can be no 50/50 with the publishing world. The other genres are still there – fantasy, paranormal, chick-lit, general fiction. They have their own boxes.
I’ll go hang myself now …
Mel…what you said. :waving:
I’ll go hang myself now …
Oh stop that!
Your opinion’s always welcome here.
I understand your point, Bailey, but there’ll always be traditional romances. The movie “The Shiek” was made in 1921, and we’re still seeing romances of that type.
I wuv u
I wuvs ya right back.
Ya’ll are cracking me up. Funny enough, outside of category, I dont see a lot of “traditional” romances…
And Bailey maybe the box is a matter of how you view it (You dont think my heroines are but I do *shrug* )